How This Ex-Navy SEAL Turned A Book Into A $1M+ Empire | Jack Carr Interview

Sam Parr

Alright everyone, so I did this podcast for me, and I'm going to explain why today's guest is this guy named Jack Carr. If you don't know who Jack Carr is, you guys should look him up. Basically, he has this series of books called *The Terminal List*. *The Terminal List* is now definitely a bestselling book; they've sold millions and millions of copies. It's a novel about a Navy SEAL who's wronged, and then there are like eight books of him getting revenge. It's also an Amazon Prime show with Chris Pratt—it's awesome! However, I had Jack Carr on the podcast because I read his book when I was going through a little bit of a transition. I had just had a daughter, and I wanted to do something that would help me become a little bit more of a man than before. I wanted to learn something about high integrity and about the things I should be doing as a man. Honestly, it changed my life. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman; I think you're going to enjoy this episode. We talk a lot about his writing process, but we mostly discuss the process of masculinity and what it means to be a stand-up person. We also talked about the business of writing books and how he makes money. I think you're going to enjoy this one. It's a little bit out of left field, but try it out. I love this guy, so check it out. I'm happy you're here, man. This is a business show, and we don't do authors and stuff like that all the time, but I published a podcast where I was talking about how I loved your books. I'm halfway through the third one, and the reason I found you is that I tweeted out, "I want to read a book that's the ultimate man novel—something that is action-adventure, page-turning, high integrity, and teaches you values." Because I just had a kid, I was like, "I want to be inspired a little bit." All these people were tagging you and saying "Jack Carr." I was like, "I've never heard of Jack Carr. I don't know anything about this. What is this all about?" I started reading *The Terminal List*, and I read the first book and was hooked. I'm so hooked; I'm halfway through number three, and I'm going to make it through all seven. I think you actually are a lot more business-savvy than most authors, if I had to guess.

Jack Carr

It's more entrepreneurial than I think. There's a difference between being entrepreneurial and being business-minded. This is why, at some point, you're going to start up to eventually sell or bring in a business person to run it, professionalize it, and scale it. I didn't really think of myself that way until about, I'd say, a month before the first book came out. I was all into the novel, leaving the SEAL teams and just writing because I love it. My mom is a librarian, so I grew up surrounded by books, and I love reading. As you can tell from the background here, I have quite the collection. I've always been a reader, and it's really the foundation from which everything else has grown. So, it was all about the book. Then, about a month, maybe two, before the first book's publication in March of 2018, I was like, "Oh, okay, I'm going to look at this the way I looked at the battlefield in Iraq and Afghanistan." Meaning, you are looking for gaps in the enemy's defenses. You're looking at how to adapt and how to capitalize on momentum. I just looked at the space in general and thought, "Oh wow, publishing really hasn't kept up." It's a very legacy-type of business. They do so well because they've been around for so long, so they're very entrenched in what they do. They make some money, but they're safe as far as business goes. They're very slow to adapt to things, even like audiobooks or ebooks, that sort of thing. So, I looked at it and thought, "Okay, why, when I get my iPhone, doesn't it just come in a manila envelope? It comes in packaging, and as much thought went into that packaging as went into the actual product itself." When I was getting books from other authors for blurbs or that sort of thing, they were just coming in these manila envelopes.

Sam Parr

Yeah, you send these amazing gift boxes. One of my really close friends is Richard Ryan, and I went to...

Jack Carr

His house is so awesome.

Sam Parr

I went to his house and I saw the boxes that you send to people. I told Richard, "After this pod, I'm gonna try and make Jack like me so much that he sends me one of these boxes."

Jack Carr

I got your names. Your names are on them. One of this for the next one.

Sam Parr

So, it's a gun case, and it has the book. Does it have anything else in it?

Jack Carr

Yep, so you open this thing up and it's kind of a way to make it easy for people who want to help you. If I send this to Chris and Brad, maybe he has time to open it, maybe he doesn't. But if he does, then this makes it easy for him to do a 15-second something to help, you know? So the help, that's awesome. The bookmark has a leather bookmark, all super high-quality stuff because everything has to be at that commensurate level as the novel itself. Everything I do has to be like right here. Like we talked about, you guys discussed your site merch. It's not just a glass where you go to some company and pick a keychain, pick a hat, pick a mug. It's like those are handpicked by me, and they're all the best you can possibly find, or the best that I can possibly find. I try to do made in America; that's not always possible. I try to veer towards veteran-owned businesses. But the book is in there, inside the book it's personalized to the person, and then they have stickers. There are three stickers.

Sam Parr

You personalized all of them.

Jack Carr

Personalized all of them. How many?

Sam Parr

Of those, did you send out?

Jack Carr

I sent out about 350, and most of them go to people as just thank-yous. They're for people with no social media presence at all, just a thank you for whatever X, Y, or Z: - Someone who helped me with research on a novel - This one [person] helped me with some aircraft stuff because I'm not a pilot, so he'll get one - Some fans that were with me from the very beginning, they get them And then people like Chris Pratt get them, and he gets the same one as everybody else. But the coin goes in there, and a different coin [is included] with every single [package].

Sam Parr

That's awesome.

Jack Carr

And you can't buy these. I know you talked about this on that podcast where you discussed me and James Patterson. You also talked about the *memento mori* coins. I don't sell these.

Sam Parr

You should.

Jack Carr

I should, but if I were to make some money on it... for me, right? I'm not saying I never will because people ask me to sell them all the time. But I have to give you one. So that's kind of the thing with these. I have to get a book signing from law enforcement, military, firefighter—somebody. They coin you, and they have this in their hand, and they shake your hand. Then I have these in my back pocket, and I coin them back.

Sam Parr

I want to talk about the economics and all this stuff, but how do I introduce you to people? So, I was thinking about this. I was like, "Well, Jack writes these books." The one-line summary is basically about a Navy SEAL who's wronged, and he goes and gets revenge involving family, country, and a bunch of adventure. It's a 7 or 8 book series now, and it's an Amazon Prime show starring Chris Pratt. But the cool thing about the book is that you do a bunch of interesting things. It's a huge hit! When I was on Amazon, it has like 100,000+ reviews across all the books, something like that. Can you say how many copies you have sold so far?

Jack Carr

No, I don't know because I don't keep track of those things. This is where the entrepreneurial side versus the business side comes in that we talked about at the beginning. I spend zero bandwidth worried about that. My metric is: Is Simon & Schuster happy? And how happy are they? They're ecstatic. So that is my... millions, I would assume. Yeah, it's up there.

Sam Parr

Is it, do you think it's north of $10,000,000?

Jack Carr

No, so that's just a guess. I don't know, but I think they tell me if it was north of $10,000,000.

Sam Parr

It's up there, I think. We had... I'm friendly with James Clear and Mark Manson, and I think that they have some of the best-selling books of the last, maybe, decade. But I would imagine that after a few more years, you're gonna be up there because you... you are a Navy SEAL, which you've talked a bunch about, but you started writing... but the books are relatively new, right?

Jack Carr

Yep, so 2018 I started writing the first one when I was still in, as I was getting out of the military. I think December of 2014 I wrote my first words for the first book. So that came out in 2018, and then there's been one a year ever since. This is the first year with two books: 1. My newest one, the 7th book in the series, "*Red Sky Morning*," comes out in June. 2. Then I have my first nonfiction that comes out on September 24th. That's on the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing, and you've probably noticed that we've [woven] a lot of history into that as well.

Sam Parr

That's why I liked it so much. You know, I'm reading "Looming Towers" right now, and I typically read American history. That's what my audience knows me for, and that's why I wanted to read yours. What's weird is, a lot of... I think without giving away too much, there's talk of a virus, there's talk of Ukraine before any of this stuff was even a thing.

Jack Carr

Yeah, that was crazy. The book with Ukraine came out in 2019, so I was writing it before... I was actually writing it before I sent the first novel to Simon & Schuster. I didn't have a publishing deal, but I always knew I was going to write two books because of the John Grisham story. He wrote "A Time to Kill" first, and he could not give that book away. Then he writes "The Firm" that takes off. It's the movie with Tom Cruise, and we've had a John Grisham legal thriller every year since.

Sam Parr

You’ve got a good track record at the moment for predicting a handful of things.

Jack Carr

Well, I hope this next one doesn't count yours. This next one's pretty brutal, so I hope this next one does not predict the future.

Sam Parr

Alright everyone, really quick. If you've heard this podcast before, you know that Sean and I think the most important skill set you need in business is **copywriting**. So, what we did was go through all of the podcasts we've done—it's like 500 of them—and we found all the best copywriting tips, resources, frameworks, and templates. We aggregated all of them into one simple document so you can skim it all and get everything we've ever talked about with copywriting. It's in the link below. It's awesome! Check it out. What did you... I know that you're writing and talking about finding an agent and things like that. You're like, "I didn't even know you needed an agent." I think you read like Steven Pressfield to learn a little bit about the publishing process. But what would you have defined as success when you were first starting? Because I imagine now you've made **millions of dollars**, you're famous, your books are loved, and there's a movie. I know that originally, before Chris Pratt was even a movie star—he was just a Parks and Rec guy—you were like, "Chris Pratt's the guy." So, you've kind of manifested all this. But what would you have defined as success like 10 years ago?

Jack Carr

You know, personal or professional, different sides. But for me, growing up, I read all these books. They all say "Number 1 New York Times Bestselling Author" on the cover. So, I'm reading Tom Clancy, I'm reading Nelson DeMille, I'm reading A.J. Kumel, J.C. Pollock, Mark Olden, Louis L'Amour— all these guys who are like my professors in the art of storytelling. But at the top of each one of those paperbacks, it says "Number 1 New York Times Bestselling Author." In my head, from age, well, let's say 11, so 6th grade, when I start reading all the same types of books my parents are reading. 5th grade is kind of that transition time from young adult type fiction to the same types of books that I'm reading and writing today. They all said that. So, in my head at that age, knowing that I wanted to write in the future, just like I knew that I wanted to be a Navy SEAL from age 7 onward, I didn't think of it in terms of, "Hey, this is success once I do this." But that was like a benchmark.

Sam Parr

That's funny that was your goal because I think in the same podcast you said you listened to for MFM, we talked about this guy. I don't remember his name, but basically, he self-published a book and he got really popular on Goodreads. I think on Goodreads collectively, he also had hundreds of thousands of reviews. From reading your books, I wouldn't call you anti-establishment, but there's some subcontext there of like, "Don't trust too many people," and whatever. I would not have thought that you'd give a shit about the New York Times. More so, just do lots of people love this? Does this create financial freedom and spiritual wholesomeness for you? You know what I'm saying? Like, if you could feel good and make money, that would be the win, not the New York Times.

Jack Carr

Yeah, well, the New York Times is like... you know, when you see a book that says "number 1" or just like "USA Today bestseller," what that tells me—and what it has always told me—is that they didn't make the New York Times list. So, the New York Times list is kind of a benchmark. You can be a number one something on Amazon in pretty much anything. So, I knew that that's not my... I'm never gonna say that. I think the publisher for the first or second book put something like that somewhere, and I was like, "Take that down. I don't want that in my calculus. That's not me." For me, like leaving the military, the things that were important... I think it's important to articulate that no matter what it is, guys, we're all gonna go through transitions in life. Whether it's a professional transition, the death of a loved one, divorce, whatever it might be, you're gonna move on and do something else, change jobs. And for me, it was financial freedom and being able to control my schedule. I knew I wanted to write. I've known from a very early age that after my time in the military, I would write thrillers just like I'm writing today.

Sam Parr

Were you writing books from an early age?

Jack Carr

So, yeah, I was always a writer. At any time we were having an English class in high school, that's what I gravitated towards. I read "The Most Dangerous Game," which is a short story that came out in 1924.

Sam Parr

Heavily inspired your book 3, I assume?

Jack Carr

Exactly, exactly. That's my... and so in 6th grade I said, "One day I'm gonna write a novel to pay tribute to that short story." And that's *Savage Son*, the one that you're on right now. So it's... I was writing, but I wasn't writing throughout my time in the military. I was reading. So I'm always reading, and I'm reading both nonfiction and fiction. So I'm always... there's never been a time when I haven't had a book in my hand or known what I'm gonna read next.

Sam Parr

There's a bunch of jokes... I'm friends with a bunch of SEAL guys, and there's a joke that many of them want to write a book because you guys experience such crazy lives. But there are actually some interesting people doing stuff in the creative space. Obviously, you and then we know Jocko and people like that, but then there's MrBallen. Do you follow MrBallen?

Jack Carr

No, I know who he is, but I've never met him. I haven't watched any of his stuff yet, but I know who he is.

Sam Parr

So, Mister Bolin... I listen to all of his stuff. Mister Bolin started, I think, as a YouTube page. He was basically just telling scary 10 and 20-minute stories of true crimes. I don't know how he managed to do this, but I mean, he has great delivery. He delivers his stories wonderfully. So, I guess it's clear how he kind of figured it out. But now it's like this massive thing. He's got millions and millions of subscribers. In Austin, near where I live, he's got a billboard now where he has this deal with Audible. It's pretty amazing that this guy has pulled this off. He doesn't pull too many details from his military days, but it is interesting to see some of these ex-SEAL guys or SEAL guys tell some of these interesting stories and be creative. Because when I think of you guys, I think of a tough guy. I don't think of an artistic guy. Do you know what I mean?

Jack Carr

Yeah, well, on the battlefield, you have to be creative. I think that's something that really made us successful in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places around the world over the last 20 years that we were at war. Being able to be creative, very quickly, and being aggressive problem solvers is key. Now, I can be an aggressive problem solver, but you know what? If I make a mistake, no one's coming home in a body bag. I can sleep on it and come back to something in a month. This is why, when I do the outlines for these books and I get to a place where I'm like, "Oh, how's James Reese gonna get out of this one?" I don't let it stall me out. I know that I have a year to figure this out because it's one book a year. The whole process takes about a year, but I don't get stuck there. I know that I'm going to figure it out. On the battlefield, you're making split-second decisions that are going to impact people's lives forever if you make the wrong one.

Sam Parr

There's this amazing book called *Made to Stick*. I read *Made to Stick* in 2008 or 2010. It's awesome! It's by, I think, the Heath brothers out of Stanford. It's a whole book about how to make ideas stick, and there are like 6 or 8 principles. One example they give is: if I told you a movie theater popcorn had 100 grams of fat, that doesn't really mean anything. But if I got 100 grams of fat and I showed that butter, or if I showed you like a black smoker's lung, then it's an easier way to understand and remember an idea. One thing that the book says is they talk about the demise of local newspapers. They tell a story about this guy in North Carolina who's got a thriving local newspaper. They go, "Hey Will, what's your deal? What's your secret with this newspaper?" He goes, "Names, names, and names. It's simple. If I could print the yellow pages, I would. All I want to do is name as many local people and their friends as possible in my newspaper because people will buy it more to see their friends, family, and themselves." Something you do in your book, and this is what I talked about in the last podcast, and what I thought was savvy, is you name so many products. It's to the...

Sam Parr

Now, where am I? I have a notification on my Bring a Trailer profile to see a Land Cruiser because I want to buy one. I know all about Land Cruisers. I just talked about this on the podcast. Someone just sent me a hatchet. I'm looking at things like Hill People fanny packs. You can name all of this stuff where I'm like, "I didn't even know I needed this pair of sunglasses." But because James Reece is using these sunglasses, I want them. Or like Black Rifle Coffee. I'm friends with Richard Ryan, one of the founders. You name Black Rifle Coffee all the time. You talk about, I think his name is Reeve. He has this leather type of boot that's a little bit more sophisticated than James Reece's because he's more of a suave type of guy. I find myself Googling this stuff, and I noticed on your website you list many of these items. It's like James Reece's daily wear in Book 1 or the guns, planes, cars, and supplies in Book 2. Do you monetize that well?

Jack Carr

No, I've been a gear guy my entire life, and I should monetize it. People assume that you are right from the get-go, but I don't know. At the beginning, I knew some of those brands because I'm just friends with them from getting that gear to go downrange with the SEAL teams and that sort of thing. But not all of them; it's just stuff that I use, but I have no personal connection to the company. However, it added a personal, not an authentic, element. So if you're someone in law enforcement, a firefighter, an intelligence agent, or in the military, and you're reading this, you could be reading a book that just says, "He picked up the shotgun; he picked up the pistol," but it doesn't tell me anything about the character. When I see somebody walk onto a range, I can see the pistol they have on, the holster they're using, the belt, their shoes, their hat, their watch. That tells me a story about them. The car they pull up in also gives me information. The same thing applies in these books. If you spend, let's say, 20 years in the SEAL teams or special forces, and you're reading a book that says, "Hey, the main protagonist has a background similar to yours," but then it says what he's carrying, you might think, "Oh man, we would never carry something like that. This doesn't make any sense. This person obviously doesn't know what they're writing about." That impacts the story in general. It's a way to add authenticity and tell a story about that person. Sometimes I'll use brands that indicate, "This person doesn't know what they're doing," and that tells the reader, who's in law enforcement or the military, something about this guy's character even before he's described or opens his mouth. So I love using those brands that way. I haven't monetized it the way people probably think I have by looking at the website. I put together gear guides for each book, including a Father's Day gear guide and a holiday gear guide. I link out, and a few of them have affiliate links, like an Amazon affiliate link. I don't really think it makes any money, actually, but it's more for the fun of it and also to help a lot of those companies, like better-known businesses. This is a way for me to give back and offer a helping hand.

Sam Parr

Yeah, I get that for a small business, but there are many businesses that you mentioned that aren't small. Your website gets traffic, and I'm like, why wouldn't you monetize that? You know, like GearJunkie.com, Gear Patrol, and Steve Ranella's company, MeatEater. They have turned these into big businesses with merchandise or affiliates. What is it? Because I know you're entrepreneurial. What's stopping you from turning this into a legitimate media company beyond what most authors do?

Jack Carr

I think the first hesitation was that I wanted it to remain authentic. I didn't want anyone to ever be able to say, "People are gonna say it anyway," but I didn't want it to be true that, "Hey, he all of a sudden had this one pistol in there and all of a sudden he switched." How much are they paying him to put that in there? The answer is $0. The answer is always $0. People have reached out and said, "How much do you need to put my product in your gear guide?" And the answer is nothing.

Sam Parr

What do you think an author like you, if you wanted to do it—which you don't—but I bet it happens, what would you have? What would a brand charge?

Jack Carr

I don't even know. And at some point? Maybe it might turn into something like that where it's a little more obvious. There's like the podcast... my podcast is something that gets sponsored and has ads on it, but those are obvious sponsors.

Sam Parr

Totally.

Jack Carr

And that's separate. There's never anything attached to that that says, "You're gonna do any of these posts on social media, and you're gonna do this in the gear guide, and you're gonna put it in the book, or you're gonna put it in the show." So none of that exists. I want to keep it pure like that. But I saw the podcast as a way to semi-monetize some of those relationships because they want to help anyway. They want to be associated. I have this podcast that is a way that authors couldn't reach an audience 20, 30, or 40 years ago. So once again, looking at that battle space, I looked at it and thought, "Well, James Patterson, he's been around, as you did your research, since the seventies, as has Stephen King." There's a reason that those names on the New York Times list that are at the top are the same names that our parents would have opened in the New York Times bestseller list and seen back in the eighties and nineties. So I realized that, "Hey, what can I do today to create new readers?" Because those authors that have been around for so long have a reader base that they have built up over 30 or 40 years. I have not done that, and there are more distractions today. Back then, let's say the seventies or eighties, you had a book that was competing with maybe television and possibly film. So those are three things: a newspaper, a magazine, and that's about it. Now, when I'm stepping into this space, I'm competing with all those other distractions and all those other products and platforms—streaming services, every single app, every single social media platform, the internet, everything out there, plus the movies and TV shows still. So I realized that if you want to build an audience today with new readers, well, now it's podcasting, social presence, blogging, and adding something of value to their lives throughout the year that they're not paying for but that helps create that connection.

Sam Parr

Yeah, another guy who does that well is a friend of mine who I imagined you're friendly with too: Ryan Holiday. So, Ryan does a really good job. I don't know how his output is so high because he always has a book that he's working on. I think he has maybe two daily emails, for sure one. He has a business selling merchandise, coins, and things like that. Then he has a bookstore. I don't know how his output is so high. He has a podcast, and then you have a bunch of stuff. You got the site, you have the newsletter, social media, and your podcast. You're always on other people's podcasts. How big is your team?

Jack Carr

It was me until this last fall, and then I got a Chief of Staff with no staff. She's amazing. Starting in February, we began adding to the team. This is my first year of putting a team together. While I was writing this last book, I thought it was going to be finished on December 1st, then January 1st, and then February 1st. It ended up being the longest book to date. You just don't know when you start. I thought I had a pretty good idea; being my seventh book, I thought it would be about 115,000 to 120,000 words. It ended up being around 150,000 words, which adds months to the writing process. I had started hiring some people to help, but I didn't really get to interact with them at all until about two weeks ago when I finally sent my final edits in for "The Good and All." So now, as of yesterday, the team is six, but it's very new. Very new. How...

Sam Parr

Are you balancing being a writer or a creator and also a manager? Is that a pain? I mean, I think it sucks.

Jack Carr

Yeah, well, to this? It's been just me and my wife. She was doing all the fulfillment, you know, with boxes all over our bedroom and living room—just chaos. I realized early on that I needed help, but I wasn't yet in a place financially where it made sense to do that. So, it's just been me, essentially starting up in the garage, making a computer in 1976 or 1977, building all the parts, and also letting people know it exists and why they need it. I was doing every single thing—being the CEO, the CFO, the CMO, the creator—being every single piece. Now, as of yesterday, I hired a sixth person to handle the Hollywood side of the house because there are multiple projects in Hollywood now. I was doing all the calls, all the writing, all the creative—everything.

Sam Parr

No shit, you are doing that by yourself.

Jack Carr

So, no, each project has a team. A lot of them haven't been announced yet, but you're putting together a team that includes a showrunner, director, and lead production team. All of those elements are essential. You're essentially putting together this package to take to Netflix, usually through another production company that you have a relationship with. There are multiple projects going on right now, so I'm jumping between writing a script, writing an executive summary, writing an outline, and doing a creative back-and-forth to see if someone is the right person to be a showrunner for the show or a lead writer on a new idea. Then, I'm jumping back in because I have a deadline on my novel. I'm managing that, and then I have to jump over to the podcast because I...

Sam Parr

Are you dealing with that context switching? Because that's really hard.

Jack Carr

Yeah, no. Well, yesterday I had my call with the person I brought on to run the Hollywood side of the house. I told him, "I need to prioritize and execute. I need to be focused on one thing at a time and then switch to the next one." There'll be a little bit of overlap there as you're editing or generating some new ideas, but for the most part, I need to be focused on one thing at a time and then switch gears.

Sam Parr

And I know you do something cool. So, you write... I think I heard on your podcast that you like to write a one-pager. You didn't exactly explain what's on the one-pager, but I imagine it's like a summary of the book. However, maybe there's more to it. My goal is that it sells as many copies or makes a reader feel a certain way. But you said, "I do this one-pager because I know that this project is going to take 18 minutes of my life, and I want to make sure that I'm willing to do that." I think that's kind of cool because running a business tends to actually go into 3 or 5-year cycles. I thought it was pretty interesting that writing this one-pager is similar to what Amazon does. They say, "We're going to create this product; go ahead and write the press release now." This way, they know what they want it to say in 24 or 12 months when the product is live. They consider how they want it to be received and what they want to tell people it does, and then they work backward to create that. That's sort of like what you're doing, and I thought that was pretty interesting. I try to do that with a bunch of projects in my life, whether it be a fitness challenge, a business, or whatever—like a new life event. I think about what the outcome is going to be like in 12 or 18 months, and I ask myself, "Do I really want to go all in on that?" I thought it was cool that you do that.

Jack Carr

Yeah, I didn't know that about Amazon, but it makes total sense. So, I do that. I write... it's kind of like what you find on the back of a paperback or in the front flap of a book, you know? It's something that describes it. So, it's about a one-pager, and it's like an executive summary. Then, I read it to myself and I ask myself that question: "Is this worth the next year, year and a half of my life?" If the answer is yes, if I'm that excited about it, then I read it again. I ask myself another question: "If someone's walking by Hudson News in the airport, they're pulling this off the shelf, and they were to read this same thing or something similar, does this idea get them excited enough to want to spend time that they're never going to get back in these pages?" So, as I'm writing, I am thinking about that. That's what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about the story. It's all about the story. It's not about what's selling. It's not about short chapters or longer chapters or what's popular. It's about none of those things. It's all about the story because you're never going to please everyone. So, if you honor the story and put all your bandwidth, all your heart and soul into every single word, then you're respecting that reader or that listener today who is spending time with you that they're never going to get back. So, that's how I approach it. I don't approach it from a business side, which maybe I should, like, "Oh, it's selling, what's popular?" But no, it all has to be about the story.

Sam Parr

Why not just be your own publisher at this point? You know, you have a pretty nice direct audience. You've been on Joe Rogan a bunch of times, and those episodes get millions of views. You get millions of impressions across all these other podcasts. Why not just do your own thing at this point?

Jack Carr

Well, I like being where I am. I like the team that they have at Simon & Schuster. I like the production value of the audiobooks. I like Ray Porter, who narrates, he's absolutely amazing. I like that they have regional representatives all across the country to get these books into Target, Walmart, and all that. I like that machine that's doing that because it allows me to focus solely on writing. I don't have to worry about that other side of it. I can see why someone would want to first build up a social media presence or an audience and then have the book, knowing that a certain percentage of that audience will take the action that you want. But that wasn't my way. That's not how I grew up, and that's not how I wanted to adapt to the new space. I wanted to adapt to it in a different way, where I still have a publisher, and there's still an art department for the cover, and all of that. So I have that machine working there, and I can solely focus on writing. Then, I can also figure out the things that maybe a large publishing company isn't so great at, like the social side of the house, the digital marketing side of the house, and the podcasts, and all of that. So I think it's a very good partnership as far as the business goes for me. Everybody's going to have a different approach.

Sam Parr

We had this guy on the podcast, and we've had him a few times. His name is **Scott Galloway**. Scott Galloway is a successful entrepreneur, but he is also an author and kind of a thought leader. I don't know how you would describe him, but he's a wonderful speaker. His new crusade right now is on young men and how they are kind of getting forgotten a bit. If you look at suicide rates, depression rates, and education, young men are getting left behind a bit. I felt that, and I remember going through a phase in my late twenties where I had a little bit of success, but I still felt like I needed to learn more about what it means to be a man. So, I went through this phase of reading. I read all these "man books" that were supposed to teach me how to become a man, I guess. I noticed that when I read your books, I felt inspired to be a man of higher integrity. Which **James Reese**, what books have you read that sort of got you on that path of being this sort of, I don't know, like a teacher of young men? Because that's kind of what you've become a little bit.

Jack Carr

Yeah, and it's interesting. Now, when I go to book signings, like I said, my first book came out in 2018. So now, someone who read that book when they were 15, 16, 17, or 18 is now a few years into their time in uniform, whether in the military, law enforcement, or whatever else. Now, I have people coming up to me and saying, "I was inspired to join the military. I was inspired to get into law enforcement. I was inspired to do this because of your books." I knew that was a possibility, but I didn't really dwell on it. The last book tour, or maybe it was the one before, was the first time where that really started happening. But you know, it happened naturally for me. I didn't get to a certain age and say, "What book should I read in order to...?" I was just constantly reading as a student of warfare. One book that stands out as my most gifted book is called *Once an Eagle* by Anton Meyer. It's written in 1968 and it's historical fiction. It follows two people from right before World War I up to Vietnam. They don't call it Vietnam in the book; they call it something else, but that's what it is. One of them is an officer, and one of them gets a battlefield commission on the battlefield in World War I. Then you have the interwar years, World War II, and it goes, like I said, up to Vietnam. The guy who is a politician in uniform, the officer, is always just a little bit ahead of this guy, Sam Damon, who is the leader of men that you would want to be as you read this book. I would gift this book to people who are starting their career in the profession of arms. There's a reason it's called the "profession of arms," not the "career of arms." I would write a letter and put it in the front cover, setting the tone for why I'm giving them this book. Then I would say in that letter, "But there's another letter at the back, and that is sealed. You have to work your way through this book." It's pretty thick, so you can use it as a blunt impact weapon or as a doorstop if you need to. It's dual-use technology. At the end, that's my take on what you just read. I don't want them to read it beforehand because I don't want to pollute their reading experience with my interpretation. So it gives them incentive to get to the end to read that last letter, setting the tone with the first one. So that's my most gifted book. It really is a book about leadership, and that's why I would give it to these guys, but through that context of historical fiction. It reads like a thriller, but you're learning about history at the same time. Ultimately, it's really all about leadership.

Sam Parr

Well, you have this... I mean, you had a career where you sort of had a rite of passage. You went to the military, you experienced some crazy stuff, and I imagine there are times where it's like, "I just grew up really fast, and now I officially feel like a man." Women have a little bit of a physical thing where it's like, "You're now a woman." Men don't typically have that. At least not now; in some cultures, they do. For example, I like to read about the Spartans, and they have this rite where they say, "Alright, now you go off into the wilderness, and you do this thing. When you come back, you're a man." The Jewish culture has a bar mitzvah and bat mitzvah, so there's a little bit of a "You're a man now." But we don't really have that in America for most men. The reason why is that I always felt that was lacking. I'm like, "I don't have this." I didn't experience this beginning, middle, and end of a journey where it's like, "I've come out, and I'm now an adult." So, I think that's why I like reading your stuff. It's like I'm living vicariously through James Reese. I experience this heartache and this evolution, and it's like I now feel weirdly more manly. I mean, as cringe as that sounds. But it's like, you know, they say you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. I think I'm the average of like the last year's worth of reading I've done. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like I'm getting a little bit of a rite of passage through your work, if that makes sense.

Jack Carr

Well, yes, and that's why it's so important for our kids, especially, to consider who they follow in this world. The five people you're spending the most time with can be virtual; it doesn't have to be that person on the playground. As you get older, it could be someone in a mentor-type relationship or in an internship. A lot of these people are the ones they are following, so it's crucial to be mindful of that. Historically, there was a rite of passage for a reason. The purpose was to prove to the tribe or community that you could add value. If you didn't, then your tribe wouldn't last for very much longer. These trials included teachings and mentorships, followed by a trial that you would go through to demonstrate that you were a valued member of the tribe. However, this practice started to fade away, particularly in the 19th and 20th centuries. It was still present before that, but today it is almost entirely lacking. This absence is why I think so many people feel lost. It's not institutionalized in our society, but it's in our DNA. There’s a reason it existed from the beginning of time until we became so comfortable that we felt we didn't need it anymore. It was essential for our survival as a species and for the survival of our tribes. That's why I believe young men, whether they realize it or not, are often drawn to things like Marine boot camp. That's the one that most people think of, but it's also...

Sam Parr

You see these things where it's like rich guys spending $15 for a weekend [escort], and a little bit of it's like, "Dude, that's fucking lame." But on the other side, I'm like, I understand why you want that, and you gotta get it how you can get it, I guess.

Jack Carr

Yeah, they missed it when they should have done it, or when another culture a thousand years ago would have had it as part of this process to bring people into the tribe. But we don't have it, so people find it later and they're like, "Oh jeez, I missed that part." Then they start reading these books and they're like, "Oh, that's what I was missing. That's why I felt this draw at a certain age that I didn't listen to." Like, listen to that calling, like the hero's journey. You heed the call. So, yeah, Marine boot camp, or it's Army Special Forces Q Course, Navy SEALs, it's called BUD/S training. But something that allows you to go through this trial and tribulation allows you to test yourself and then prove to the group that you're worthy of joining the ranks. I think if you don't do that in one way, shape, or form—it doesn't have to be military—but if you don't do that, then I think that's why people feel so lost these days, generally.

Sam Parr

Yeah, look, I get those things, and maybe I'll do them. Just don't post any pictures of me online doing it because that would... yeah, I would need another rite of passage to get through the ridicule that I would receive for posting. We're obsessed. There's a concept in *The Comfort Crisis* that I'm really into. It's called **misogi**. Have you heard of it? We've talked about it a bunch here on the spot, but have you heard of misogi? It's basically this idea that stems from a Japanese myth. There's this Japanese guy who goes to, I think, hell or something to find his wife who has been kidnapped. He goes on this massive journey where he gets dirty and grimy, and he finally saves his wife. He brings her back, washes himself off in a waterfall, and he's now a new man because of the hardship he went through. I think his name was **Misogi**. So, a lot of people now are doing these really hard physical challenges. For example, the guy who made it popular would say, "Today we're going to get our paddleboard, and we're going to paddle to this island that's 15 miles out, and then we're going to paddle back." There are basically two rules: 1. You have to have only a 50% chance of succeeding. 2. Don't die. So, I'm training for my misogi right now, which is a 50-mile race. I got really obsessed with this idea of misogi, of having this really hard concept. I went through this whole phase where I was reading about it and all this stuff. Have you ever heard of the misogi?

Jack Carr

You know, I feel like I should have... because I read *The Comfort Crisis*, but I read it a couple of years ago now when it first came out and had Michael Easter on the podcast. But yeah, I won't feel that anymore because I feel like I did that already. I'm like, "Oh, this looks exhausting." I think I feel like I've done that most of my life. So now, it's really all about writing, having each book better than the last. That's always my goal, which is why the last book I finished is always my favorite up to this point. Anyway, I don't know if it'll always be that way, but that's how it is thus far because I do feel like I'm improving with each book. I'm improving as an author, as a writer, and that's what I owe the audience. So, yeah, I understand it. I understand that draw to do something difficult, to test yourself. I certainly understand it.

Sam Parr

You kind of have this... even though I would stereotype you as a tough guy, you have this, like, weird—well, not weird, but you have this, I don't know how to describe it—almost spiritual way about you. I remember you told the story about how, before or maybe when you were writing the first book, you were like, "Chris Pratt is the guy. I need to get him to do this." And lo and behold, after a handful of years, he calls you and he was like, "Hey, your book's awesome! I would love to turn this into a show, and maybe I'll star in it." Do you believe in these weird types of spiritual manifestation things? Like, if you want it bad enough, things come true? Because it seems like it's happened a few times in your life where you've kind of called your shot when it seemed ridiculous at the time. Yeah.

Jack Carr

I mean, it seems like... but it's more than just calling it or manifesting it. You know, sitting down and visualizing it—it's more than that. When you think about how someone is going to make that serve in tennis or an extra kick in soccer, that's very tactical. You can watch videos, manifest it, and think of it strategically. Now, obviously, that tactical level requires work, but the strategic level also requires work. It's not just about that one thing, like the foot placement or the way you're going to throw the ball, or whatever it might be. I think there is a spiritual side to it, which I believe connects us all. But it's more about the work. It's not going to happen without putting in the work. That's the thing. It might not happen even if you put in the work—that's possible too—but it's certainly not going to happen if you don't. As I'm starting to write this thing, as a child of the eighties, it's very natural for me to think about who's going to star in the film or the TV show. At the time, I was like, "Oh, I saw Chris Pratt transform from this guy who played Andy Dwyer on *Parks and Recreation*—funny, a little overweight—and then I saw his transformation in *Zero Dark Thirty* to a SEAL." So I said, "This is a guy who needs a role like this. He needs it for his career." I'm thinking this in December of 2014. So I'm like, "Chris Pratt will play the main character. He'll play James Reese; he needs it for his career." Then I thought, "Who do I want to direct? Antoine Fuqua. I love Antoine Fuqua—*Training Day*, *Tears of the Sun*, and all this." He's the guy. That's who I want to direct this thing. Then I just go about writing. I have no connection to Hollywood, no connection to publishing.

Sam Parr

And you haven't even published the first one yet.

Jack Carr

No, I haven't published the first one. I have no idea how I'm going to get it to a publisher, but I'm not thinking about any of those things. I have no social media presence and no Facebook page.

Sam Parr

Did you tell your friends that you wanted this to happen?

Jack Carr

No, in the SEAL teams, you wanted to keep anything about writing close to the vest.

Sam Parr

But like, would you tell your wife or whatever, "Kill the talk"? You're like, "Hey, would it be neat if Chris Pratt was James Reese?"

Jack Carr

Yeah, yeah, no, I told people. Like, my wife, she's known I wanted to be a SEAL and write in North Carolina since we were 18 years old. So she's been on this journey for the entire time. But how it manifested, I guess, is in a way that I never would have expected. I called a friend who I served with in the SEAL Teams. He called me in November of 2017, about 6 or 7 months before the book even comes out. He said, "Hey, do you remember me?" because I hadn't talked to him in about 5 years. I said, "Yes, of course, I remember you." He then asked, "Do you remember what you did for me in the SEAL Teams?" I was like, "No." He said, "Well, you're the only person, when I said I was getting out and leaving the Teams, that sat me down in your office, talked about transitioning out of the military, introduced me to people in the private sector, and followed up with me. You asked if you could do anything else, and I've never forgotten it. I always wanted to thank you." I said, "No problem, how's it going?" He replied, "It's going great, but I heard through the grapevine you have a book coming out." I said, "Yeah, it's coming out in a few months. It's called *The Terminal List*. I can send you a copy if you want to check it out." He said, "I like that, but I'd like to give it to a friend of mine also." I asked, "Yeah, who's that?" He said, "Well, it's my best friend, it's Chris Pratt." I was like, "Oh, well, that's very convenient for me because I pictured him playing this role all those years ago." So he gave it to Chris. Chris read it in December of 2017, and then he called me the first week in 2018 and wanted to option it. At the same time, another friend, unbeknownst to me, had given a copy to Antoine Fuqua. They met at a speaking event, and he gave a copy to Antoine. Antoine read it and wanted to option it as well. Chris and Antoine knew each other from *Magnificent 7*, so then they called and worked it out. Now we have *The Terminal List* on Amazon Prime.

Sam Parr

How's that feel to be not a nobody, but just a guy? Just a guy making these ridiculous predictions, and they come true.

Jack Carr

Yeah, well, I mean, it wouldn't have happened if, obviously, I hadn't. I always really cared about people in the teams. My focus was always on the guys and helping them, whether they were staying in or getting out. I did notice that a lot of other people, especially officers, didn't do that. If you said you were getting out, they only cared about you if you were in the SEAL teams, and that just wasn't me. So, if I hadn't helped Jared out, at the time, I didn't think anything would ever come back around. That wasn't the reason I did it, obviously, but it did come back around. Now, I'm flying out to Budapest in about a week to go film out there. They're on set right now. Jared's a writer, producer, actor, and technical adviser on set right now. Jared Shaw gave Chris the book, and this is the second season. We have another one coming up here with the second book, with Chris in it, that should start filming in 2025. You never know until it's actually all completed and ready, and actually up there on the screens. So, I try to manage those expectations. But yeah, now we're off to the races. There are other Hollywood projects and multiple books, and now the nonfiction. I have a strategic plan that I've written out just by being a student of all this my whole life, but not with the intent of being a student. More so, just like I said, from the fan perspective. I have a strategic plan with all these things that I want to build because, essentially, those goals that I wanted were to serve my country, to perform as a SEAL, do the best job I could, be the best leader, and be the best operator I possibly could. Then, I wanted to write a novel, have it be a New York Times bestseller, and get it up on the screen. So, those things are done, and now it's just about doing all those things better and continuing to grow in a way that's real, authentic, and adds value to people's lives. This allows me to do what I love to do and also allows me to hit my mission. My mission is taking care of my family, and my passion is writing. I wanted to combine those things for purpose going forward as I left the SEALs because I saw so many people not know what they wanted to do or think that they knew, and then all of a sudden step into it and realize this wasn't really what they wanted after all.

Sam Parr

Do you think you have hit that point? I sold my first company when I was 31, and that's where I hit the financial threshold. On paper, I never need to work again because my income from my stock portfolio can pay for a really great life forever. Of course, I still want to work forever because I enjoy it. Have you been able to cross that threshold to where financially you're like, "I can breathe"? Because, you know, working for the government, you're not rolling in it, but I imagine you are now. Have you been able to cross that threshold?

Jack Carr

Yep, not yet... not yet, but I'm on the cusp. Not quite there yet, and getting closer, but a lot of this has been invested back in. I think a lot of people probably would have held on and not done boxes when you can't afford it and put it all on your credit card early on. Like a box...

Sam Parr

Is that what you're doing? Those boxes were... yes.

Jack Carr

Everything is going back in. How do I get this podcast going? How do I do a video for this book that looks like a movie, something better than any author has ever made before to promote a book? Okay, how do I do that? Well, I invest because it costs money to do that. So, I invested a lot back in to grow.

Sam Parr

You can't get the publisher to pay for that.

Jack Carr

No, but I think people think that the publisher pays for these things.

Sam Parr

I would have thought that.

Jack Carr

Yeah, and I think some other people now, because I see others doing something similar. I got a guest one from me to do the other day. You talked about those, and it came from the...

Sam Parr

From who?

Jack Carr

From MeatEater.

Sam Parr

He has.

Jack Carr

A new T-Mobile cookbook has come out a couple of days ago, and so I'm going to be on my Father's Day gift guide just to, you know, do my part and help them out a tiny bit. But it certainly came from the publisher, so I think maybe other publishers also think my publisher pays for these things when it's really just me out of pocket as a business.

Sam Parr

My hope for you in this probably doesn't align with your own, so I don't know if it's going to happen. But what I want, as a fan, is to see Jack Carr become the new MeatEater. I want to see a lifestyle media company all around your shtick. I know I told you about Churnin. It's a Churnin company that invests in MeatEater or things like it. They focus on brands that have a strong affinity with different lifestyles. Eventually, they make more content and sell stuff. Hopefully, they've done it a bunch and created really big businesses that are awesome for you as an owner because you make money. But it's also awesome for me as a consumer because now I have more James Reese, Terminalist, Jack Carr stuff in my life. That's my hope for you: that one day you take that path. I am being selfish, but it would be cool for you as well, maybe if it aligns with your values.

Jack Carr

Thank you. Yeah, as long as there's a way to do it where it still remains **authentic** and **real** to that person who's trusting me with their time or their money, then, yeah. I think things are going in that direction. That's certainly a possibility.

Sam Parr

Last question: Which books or resources that are a little bit less known helped you and taught you the most about the storytelling or creative process that I can go and explore?

Jack Carr

Read. Yeah, so those for sure. The one on Stephen King, "On Writing," and a series of books by Stephen Fusfield all really talk about the same thing but go into different nuances as far as overcoming resistance, doing the work, putting in the time, and becoming a professional. So those ones. Another one is called "The Successful Novelist" by David Morrell, who created Rambo with "First Blood" back in 1972. Where's that one? Then there's "The Hero's Journey" through "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. That one right there influenced "Star Wars." Once you read that book or watch a series of interviews that he did on PBS back in 1988 with Bill Moyers called "The Power of Myth," you realize how similar these stories are across cultures and why they have resonated from the beginning of time. Some of these stories, these myths, were really created to pass on lessons—lessons of the hunt, lessons of warfare—so the next generation doesn't have to learn those same lessons in blood. That tribe, that community can grow and not just survive, hopefully, but thrive.

Sam Parr

You're the man! I appreciate you doing this. Your books have not only been fun, but they've changed me a little bit as a man, as a husband, as a father, and as a citizen of America. You've done amazing stuff, and I wish nothing but amazing success for you and your family. So, thank you for all this. This is awesome!

Jack Carr

Oh man, I appreciate that. And thank you for the podcast! I'm so glad I discovered it because I'm going to be taking notes going forward on how to scale things and how to do things a little better. Because no matter what I'm doing in life, I always want to do it a little better the next time. I always want to adapt and be more effective and efficient with what I'm doing. So thank you for what you do as well.

Sam Parr

I appreciate you, and that's the pod.