Scott Galloway’s Advice To Make Millions In Your 30s & 40s

Scott Galloway

My first nelian.

Shaan Puri

Let's go.

Scott Galloway

My first baby mama, my first ketamine experience, my first addiction.

Shaan Puri

Here's what I want to start with: I love some of the things that you say, and one of the things you said is, "Don't follow your passion." You mentioned that people who are already rich tell you to follow your passion, but you suggest that you should follow your talent instead. Can you unpack that? Can you explain what you mean?

Scott Galloway

I wanted to be an athlete; that was my passion. Going to UCLA was a blessing because I figured out pretty quickly that I wasn't in the 0.1% you need to be in to make a living as an athlete. There are some pretty basic axioms that should guide your career choices around where you invest your most precious capital, which is your time and your human capital. The first is: the sexier the business, the lower the return on investment. If you want to be in fashion, the arts, movies, modeling, or sports, unless you get really, you know, incandescent green lights from a very early age that you're going to be in the 0.1%, try to make a living somewhere else and do that on the weekends. For instance, if you look at SAG-AFTRA, the most talented actors in the world, it's hard to get a SAG-AFTRA union card. You have to actually earn something. These are the most talented actors in the world—182,000 of them—and 87% of them don't qualify for health insurance because they don't make more than $23,000 in a given year. So the key is not finding your passion but finding your talent and then committing to developing mastery. If you can develop mastery in anything that has a 90%+ employment rate, which 98% of sectors enjoy, the economic accoutrements, the camaraderie, the prestige, the relevance, and just the sheer joy of mastery will make you passionate about whatever it is. I'm passionate about taking care of my kids. I'm passionate about being able to step in and help my aging father. I'd rather be Rafael Nadal or Federer, but I'd rather be me than the number 3 or number 4 tennis player in the world because I have financial security. I get to go to Wimbledon on my own terms and not be as nervous or throw up before a match. So yeah, I'd rather be Nadal, but pretty much anyone else playing tennis, I'd rather be. I got there with boring companies. The less sexy a business, the higher the return on investment. I would suggest that we stop and think about, "Well, what could I be good at?" I think that's what your twenties are for—workshopping stuff and also getting it wrong. I started in investment banking, and I was terrible at it. I didn't like it, and they didn't like me. I had to go back to business school and just start workshopping where I could be great and what industry I could be great in. So don't just find what you're good at; get great at it and then be a DJ on the weekends.

Sam Parr

By the way, congratulations! Today is the release date of the book, right? "Algebra of Wealth."

Scott Galloway

Today is the day.

Sam Parr

So that's going to be huge. I mean, I read *The Algebra of Happiness* a while ago and I've been watching the videos forever. So I kind of... I didn't get an early copy of the book, but I will buy it and read it. And so you'll get my $23.

Scott Galloway

I need you to... We're, by the way, number 1 on Amazon today. I decided I would drop that because I'm desperate. I'm desperate for your affirmation, Sam.

Sam Parr

That's alright. I'll give it to you. I won't starve you from that. You've got it. I look up to you. I think you're the man.

Scott Galloway

Thank you.

Shaan Puri

Well, let me ask you about being number 1 on Amazon real quick. You're a pretty stoic guy. In fact, when you come on the podcast, it's always surprising to me that you are so even-keeled. But it's the launch day of your book, you worked on this thing really hard, you're number 1 on Amazon. How does Scott Galloway celebrate?

Scott Galloway

Oh, you know, I'm not... I'm pretty flat. I don't... I congratulate the team. It feels great; it's very gratifying. I love benchmarks. I'm addicted to... everyone's addicted to something. I'm addicted to a stranger's affirmation, which is kind of pathetic at my age. That's a form of affirmation, but it's very rewarding because so many people work so hard on this thing. Just not me, but you know, my researchers, my analysts, my PR people, my social people, my publisher, my book agent. You know, greatness is in the agency of others, so it's just very gratifying. Plus, my podcast co-host got to number 3 on the best sellers list. So, goddamn it, if I'm not going to get to number 2, I must beat Kara Swisher. So, Sam, if you could go buy several thousand books, I'd appreciate it. And if you like it, write a review. If you hate it, please buy more and send them to an enemy. But yeah, I'm... I'm addicted to external affirmation. It's really pathetic.

Sam Parr

Well, so, I mean, the book, from my understanding, basically talks about the people who have money and the people who don't. It explores the commonalities between the winners and the losers. I've read this for years. There is this awesome Fast Company article about you, and I've seen you say this in videos where you were shockingly calculating when starting your last company, L2. I think you said something like Deloitte did a study that shows the difference between the people who sell their companies for 5 to 10 times revenue versus those who just sell it for 1 or 2 times. You had these four or five key factors: they own a niche, they have recurring revenue, tech is at their core, they are international, and finally, they have defensive intellectual property. Then you went on to say how, in your forties and fifties, when you were starting L2, you were only focused on money. You said, "I worked my ass off. I was there at the office at 2 AM." But you also said, "I don't regret it. It was totally worth it." When you were starting L2, I don't really know too much about that industry or that business other than a handful of articles. Were you that calculating, working backwards from an exit? And by the way, the story ends with you selling it for $120 million.

Scott Galloway

A 160 boss? Jesus, get your facts right! By the way, I'm number 1 on Amazon today. I don't know if I told you that. Yeah, I didn't have a lot of money, and for me, work was about getting economic security. I was very focused on money. I'm not saying that's the right way; it was just my way. I had done a lot of analysis in the study, referring to companies that sell in any industry. They looked at the lowest 10 percentile and the upper decile of the valuations they get taken out at. The study examined the common features of the companies that got sold in the top decile, and it was all the things you talked about. That's literally how I shaped the business model. I opened a London office right away. Instead of charging consulting fees, I said, "Pay me a quarter of a million dollars a year, and I'll answer your toughest questions using data." We focused on luxury and then consumer brands, broadening our niche a little bit. I raised $17 million to create a series of technology and scraping tools, which allowed me to collect more data points than anyone in the world. When the inevitable guy from the analytics department came in with his arms crossed to play "gotcha," they just couldn't argue with our data. We collected more data than anyone in the world on these issues and tried to distill it down to something actionable. I was very focused on exit, and we sold for 8 times revenue. So, yeah, man, my basic pitch to people was, "You're going to work your ass off, and I'm going to try and get you to where your parents were 20 years earlier." If you're looking for balance, this isn't that place. If you're really into management or other things, tell me, and I will try to shape a role around what's important to you. But we are a small business going all in to try and create economic security for us and our families. With Prop G Media, we're about 14 people now. I purposely didn't take outside capital. I'm not on that hamster wheel again. I'm not trying to jones for an exit; I'm trying to build something interesting that has relevance and a little bit more impact on the social issues we think about, while also paying our people really well. I used to pay people below market and give them equity. I was throwing nickels around like they were manhole covers because I wanted to have a profitable company I could sell. Now my priorities have changed. The people who join the company, I tell them, "This isn't the kind of company that gets sold." But what I'll do is share; I'll give you equity or participation in my book deals. You know, as a junior analyst, you get 1 or 2% of any book deal I get. I'm trying to create some economic upside for them. My natural starting point...

Scott Galloway

Is that people come to work to develop economic security for themselves and their families. They want to increase their currency in the marketplace, gain experience, and also develop relationships. The workplace is a great place to meet friends, mentors, and additional co-founders. We saved a lot of money during COVID. We gave up our office and saved about $800,000 to $900,000 a year on an office. Of course, as a narcissist, I had to have this amazing office in Soho, which was stupid. I have this benefit at work: if any four of them are together, they get my credit card. They can go to Broadway or they can go to Tulum. They've done those things without asking my permission, as long as there are four of them. The number one source of retention, I think, is key to building a small business. If you find good people, you just don't want them to be with you for a year or two and then leave for Google. The switching costs are enormous. If you find someone good, your job as an entrepreneur or CEO is to create an environment where they want to stick around. Retention of employees, in my opinion, is huge. I read a study that said the number one source of retention, or the number one lever for retention, is not compensation or culture. It's whether or not that person has a friend at work. If they have a friend at work, they look forward to going to work and are less likely to leave. What I try to do is have everybody interview everybody when we hire people. These kids are really inspiring. They'll go on vacation together. They'll say, "Scott, you're speaking in Hamburg, Germany. All six of us are going to come," and they have a great time together. They like each other, and it's a powerful kind of business weapon, if you will. Now, I don't think you can do that as a company scales beyond 50 or 100 people, but I found for small businesses, it's really powerful.

Shaan Puri

Hey, real quick! As you know, we're big on ideas here. We love bringing new ideas—business ideas, brainstorming ideas—for the podcast. Well, a lot of people ask, "What do you do with all those ideas? Can we go find them? Is there a list somewhere?" The great people at HubSpot have put together a **business ideas database**. It's totally free! If you just click the link in the description below, you can go download a collection of over **50+ business ideas** that are from the archive, listed out for you and curated. So, what are you waiting for? Go download it! It's free! Check it out; it's in the description below. Alright, back to the show. Is the trick there that you don't try to be their friend? Because I've had that problem before. I wanted to be the friend, and that made the management a little bit messy. I realized it's much better for me to not be the friend and not be included in the hangs. The whole company functions better. Even though personally, I was like, "Oh man, they're all going out without me," it was far better that it went that way.

Scott Galloway

I always had a healthy sense of what the border was. My president of my company and I, along with my partner at L2, are both about the same age and share the same view. We have parties all the time. We show up early, and as soon as things start getting a little crazy, we leave. We don’t need to see them drunk, and they definitely don’t need to see me drunk. My attitude is that what you’re saying, Sean, is really interesting. I’m just coming to the realization as a dad that I’m not their friend; I’m their dad. It was really upsetting to me that my kids didn’t want to be my friend. I don’t want to say they don’t want to be my friend, but I just naturally assumed that my kids would adore me and be really into World War II history and CrossFit because that’s what Dad is into. Guess what? They’re not. What I realized is that I’m not their friend; I’m there to be their dad. It’s kind of the same way I think about working with such young people. The average age is probably 30 or 34, but the mean or median is like 25. It’s basically a bunch of overeducated, super ambitious kids. When they’re doing dinner and drinks somewhere, I show up for dinner, leave before dessert, and then they can enjoy each other without thinking they’re being judged by Scott. So, I draw a sharp line between work and fun with those guys. I love going out with them, but I only stay for the first couple of hours before I disappear so they can have their own fun.

Shaan Puri

I love that if four of you get together, you get my card. That's an amazing little tidbit. I'm here to collect little lessons learned from you today, and that's one immediate one for me.

Scott Galloway

Thanks, man.

Sam Parr

So, like, obviously you're kind of... I don't know if you're at the peak, but you're on a calendar right now in terms of your podcast and being a public figure with the books and everything. Before that, you had the company, so you had a huge financial outcome. One of the things that I think gets kind of brushed over in your history is what you're doing as an activist investor. I know you're on the board of The New York Times, and you made a few other substantial investments. I know you're working with a hedge fund to do that. What were some of the deals that you were doing? What were some of the best deals? What were some of the worst deals? What were some of the signals that you had? Were there signals that you had where you were like, "This is an interesting deal; I should pounce on this"?

Scott Galloway

Sure, so there's a bit of a backstory there. I started coming to RedEnvelope. I went public, I was on the board, and I got into a fight with arguably the most successful venture capitalist in the world. Spoiler alert: he won the fight, and I was kicked off the board. So, I was kicked out of the band that I started, which was emotionally and mentally very taxing for me. Then I got angry. It was a really weird time in my life. My mom was dying, and I moved in with her. During the day, I would manage her healthcare. At night, she was living in Vegas, and I would go downtown and get really drunk with strippers and friends. Then, I would go back and manage my mom's healthcare and watch *Everybody Loves Raymond* and *Jeopardy!* with her. It was a strange time in my life. I was also very angry because I'd just been kicked off the board of RedEnvelope. So, I took half a million dollars of my money and filed a proxy to replace the entire board. I learned everything about activist investing and shareholder governance, and I tried to kick everyone off the board. I owned 10% of the company, and I think I got 12% of the vote. My proxy solicitor said that 2% was probably a mistake, so basically, no one voted for my slate. That was kind of a low moment for me. The world had told me they didn't want me involved in this corporation or in public companies. Then, six months later, I got a call from a hedge fund that said, "You're crazy, but you are kind of crazy. We have some stakes in companies, and we need someone to kind of go in and rattle the cage." It just struck me that at your lowest moment, you really don't know where that might lead. I got backed and went into a company called United Retail, which was a plus-size clothing brand. I basically showed up and said, "Let me build your website; you don't have a website." This was a while ago. I was going to try and replace the board, and they said fine. The stock went from $2 to $8, and I thought, "Wow, this is easy." I did it at Sharper Image, bought a big stake there, and went in. The company seemed like a mess, but the stock had gone up a little bit. I got out. I did Gateway Computer, went on the board there. That was more difficult; we made a small amount of money, but I'd never lost money doing it. Then, I went and raised $700 million and became the largest shareholder in The New York Times. I went on the board there, and timing is everything. In this case, I went on the board in March of 2008, and the stock went from $16 to $3 in about five months.

Scott Galloway

I think I was losing **$10 to $12 million** of other people's money every day. We almost lost the business; the company almost went bankrupt. I don't know if you guys remember that, but in the world of media, people just stopped advertising. They just stopped. It was like our tap of revenue just got turned off. It was sort of the **Great Financial Recession**. It kind of ended my career in activism because, one, I don't think I was very good at it, and two, I was getting to a stage in my life where I just didn't want to be combative anymore. I didn't want to go to war with CEOs. I was just exhausted by being an antagonist. I thought, "I'm never going to go on a board again unless the CEO wants me there." But I did that for a while. I learned a lot and made a little bit of money, but I was in my early 40s and, quite frankly, just trying to figure out a way to make a living so I could stay in New York, which isn't easy. I think I was flailing a little bit, but it was a great experience. I learned a lot about human nature, about shareholders, and about governance. I get called a lot by boards when they're being challenged by an activist because I was one, and I think I have some insight into how these people think. But yeah, it was just a strange time in my life. It was interesting; it was fun. I just wasn't very good at it.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, that's cool. You've had a bunch of different careers, and I like that. I like variety. I like people who have different chapters or sagas in their life. You mentioned that your twenties are for figuring out what you actually like to do or what you're actually good at, or the intersection between those two. It sounds like yours went past your twenties, and you just kept experimenting along the way. Is that a fair assessment for you?

Scott Galloway

Yeah, investment banking... I was no good at it. I went to business school and started a brand strategy firm called Profit. I grew it to a couple hundred people and sold it for $33,000,000. What do I want to do? I know I want to teach. The dot-com implosion took me from what I thought was being wealthy to not being wealthy. Teaching wasn't going to help me maintain the lifestyle I needed or wanted to maintain with two young kids in New York. So, I needed to find other ways to make money. I did the hedge fund thing for a while, did boards, and then saw an opportunity in analytics and benchmarking. I started that company in 2009 or 2010, and that was my big win. Timing is everything. I got swept up into what is the greatest bull market economy in history. From 2008 to the present is probably going to go down as the greatest extended bull market run in history. People don't understand just what an anomaly the last 16 years have been relative to the history of the market. Just as I was coming into my prime income-earning years, the winds filled up my sails. I finally got all the moons sort of lined up, if you will. But I've always said, you know, you gotta be humble when things work because a lot of your success isn't your fault. At the same time, I wish I had been more forgiving of myself when things didn't work. I have trouble forgiving myself. I struggle with anger, and the person I get most angry at is myself. I have trouble getting past things. You know, I was at a book event last night, and I said something that just came out wrong. I'm sitting in bed, and I can't get past that one thing. It went really well, but I can't think that way. I focus on what's wrong. My advice to people is: be humble when you have wins because a lot of it isn't you. But also, forgive yourself because, you know, again, a lot of it isn't you.

Shaan Puri

My roommate in college had the poem "If—" by Rudyard Kipling on his wall. One of the great lines of that poem is, "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster and treat those two impostors just the same." That's always stuck with me. That's kind of what you're talking about: maintaining humility in your greatest triumphs and not beating yourself up too much in your greatest failures. You're a big proponent of stoicism, and that seems like a pretty stoic way to be. Give us the pitch. There are a lot of people listening to this right now who may be familiar with stoicism but don't practice it or don't know how it applies to their lives. So, why does stoicism matter to someone?

Scott Galloway

Well, just your own mental and emotional health. Ryan Holiday is kind of my Yoda on stoicism, and he distills it this way: **life is not about what happens to you; you can't control that, but you can control how you respond to what happens to you.** I've tried to always remember that, and I have trouble practicing it. But, you know, the ultimate stoicism piece of art in modern history or modern media is *Brokeback Mountain*. "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." That is, try and focus on the things you can control. You can control your emotions. It's very difficult to control what happens to you. Also, recognize—and this is more atheism than stoicism—that everyone on this podcast, everyone we know, everyone we care about, what they think of us, they're going to be dead in 100 years. In the blink of history, nothing you say or do, or what anyone else thinks of you, is going to matter for very long. Something that really has helped me when I was embarrassed or thought I didn't equip myself very well is to realize that when someone says or does something stupid, you think to yourself, "Oh, that was stupid," and then you go back to thinking about yourself. People aren't thinking about you, your wealth, your failures, or your successes as much as you are. The key is just trying to be comfortable with yourself and comfortable in your own skin. Not only that, really focus on what your spouse thinks of you. Is your spouse happy? Do you have a good relationship with your kids? Because what Twitter thinks of you really isn't that important. I had so much trouble actually putting my emotions to that logical notion. I know it doesn't matter what people on Twitter or the Twitter mob think of me, but I couldn't emotionally separate myself from it. I don't have those skills. So, a role model of mine is a guy named Sam Harris. He's like, "Oh, I got off Twitter; I can't handle that." I thought, "Why don't you get off of Twitter?" I'm like, "Yeah, I can." So I stopped. I've been off Twitter for the last nine months, and it's been one of the most beneficial things for my mental health. I didn't like to admit this, but I would say five or six weekends where I just got really bummed out by something, probably two or three of them started on Twitter. Now, why am I on something that's making me upset on a regular basis? There's an addictive nature to it, and I think that freaks me out. I can modulate it, you know? Can my 13-year-old son? Do I even know that he's upset? We have a rule in my house that our boys aren't allowed to go into their rooms with their phones alone because I think this thing can literally take a teenager—especially a teenage girl—down a rabbit hole and kind of 0 to 60 really fast. Then it starts serving her content: "Oh, you're worried about dieting? Well, here's extreme dieting tips," despite the fact we know you're 5'10" and 95 pounds. "Oh, you're depressed? Well, here are some videos of people considering suicide; we're going to normalize it for you." I don't think parents are really in touch with just how ugly and how fast it gets. So, I'm trying to be very thoughtful about what it is as a stoic—controlling what I can control—and then trying to be in better touch with my emotions. Recognize that when you're down, it's more about the chemistry in your head than any legitimate reason to be down. When you look at the end of life, the biggest regrets—my colleague at NYU, Adam Alter, did great research on people who are very near death in palliative care—and their biggest regrets are: 1. They wish they'd stayed in better touch with friends. 2. They wish they'd lived the life they wanted to lead, not the life society or their parents wanted them to lead. 3. But their biggest regret is they wish they'd been less hard on themselves. They wish they'd forgiven themselves. They wish they'd allowed themselves to be happy. That's something I've been very focused on. It's like, **okay, stop beating yourself up. You're going to be dead soon; why wouldn't you squeeze as much juice out of this lemon as conceivable?** Allow yourself the opportunity to be happy and be sad if you need to be. I think of stoicism as, again, **life isn't about what happens to you; it's how you respond to what happens to you.** Decide what is in your control, and try to be good to yourself. Try to forgive yourself, and also just try to be humble. You are never more prone to a really big mistake than right after a big win. Because here's the thing: you start thinking you're good at picking stocks. You start thinking you're so skilled at work. It wasn't that someone senior to you took an interest in you and championed you. You start thinking, "Oh, I'm great at real estate; I just didn't get lucky and buy a home at the right time." So, try to just ignore the market when it tells you you're a failure. This is personal too. There have been moments in my life where I thought, "I don't think I'm ever going to be able to work again. I think I've ruined everything. I don't think I'm ever going to make a very good living." I remember thinking, saying to my partner at the time, "Let's move to a low-cost neighborhood of Charlottesville or Raleigh-Durham. I'm going to teach, try and write, you know, make decent livings, and just have a really nice life." My partner's like, "That's giving up." I'm like, "Well, that's not giving up." But I thought, "This is it; I just need to substantially downgrade my expectations." I don't mean to say that that's not a great life. I remember thinking after my divorce, "I don't think I'm ever going to have someone who I can share my life with again. This is just never going to happen to me. I'm an unattractive, broken man who's never going to find a partner again." I believed that for a short time. I think it's important that everybody recognize that you are the answer to a firm's problem. You can find someone who you can love and who is going to love you a great deal. The key is getting up, putting yourself in a place of success, getting out of the house, being friendly, being risk-averse, surrounding yourself with people, and focusing on exercise and nutrition that makes you feel good about yourself. That way, when the winds kick up again, your sails are up. I've always tried to do that. I've had a lot of failure, but I always had my sails up so that when the winds kicked up again, I was in a position to rumble, so to speak. I know a lot of people who are very successful, and then they hit some failure—a personal failure, a death of a parent, they can't quite get over a divorce, a company that fails—and they get stuck. They can't forgive themselves; they can't forgive others; they can't forgive the market, or they lose their mojo. Whatever it is, two, three, five, seven years go on, and they just haven't progressed. Their skills start atrophying; their confidence starts atrophying. So, what I say is put a statute of limitations on it. Whenever anything bad happens to you, you gotta put a statute of limitations on it. A parent dies; within 12 weeks, you should still be sad and thinking about your parents, but you should be able to function. You go through a real emotional trauma or a breakup—how serious was it? How much time? What's the statute of limitations? A business goes out of business? Okay, mourn for a little while. What is that? Two months? Three months? But if you aren't better, if you aren't back sending out emails, trying to raise money, going out, trying to meet new people—whatever it might be—within that timeline, you need to reach out for help and get unstuck. Because time goes really fast, and your skills atrophy in a sort of downward spiral. Something I've always been able to do is mourn and move on. Churchill said, "The key to success is the ability to move through failure without losing your sense of enthusiasm." I've tried, and I've been pretty good at not losing my sense of enthusiasm.

Sam Parr

You're... you know, you've got brilliant ideas. I think you're a good business person. But you talk about not just following your passion, but your talent. I think that what you're most talented at is communication. I've seen you speak live, I've listened to the podcast, and I've seen your videos. You do such a good job at picking really sharp words and phrases. Just small examples, like "accoutrement." I've noticed that you love that word, and I have never heard anyone use it as much as you. I'm like, "Oh, I love that word! Nobody uses that word. It's a beautiful word." Or you sign your emails with "Life is rich." You've got beautiful phrases. I even had a chat with GPT where I uploaded like 150 of your blogs, and I would ask it questions to help give me ideas for phrases because you're really good at that. Who do you steal from when it comes to... or who are you inspired by when it comes to language? I mean, you seem like someone, if I had to guess, like you're a George Carlin guy or something like that. Who do you steal some of your delivery from or are inspired by for writing? Because you're really good. Do you have a bank of phrases? When you see a phrase, are you like, "Oh, I'm going to take that phrase and use it somewhere?"

Scott Galloway

If you don't have a "kitchen cabinet" of people that you learn enough about to mimic, you're trying to play a team sport solo. You're on the field alone, and I didn't figure that out until I was older. So, I absolutely, when I see something inspiring, I read maybe one book a year. People think I'm well-read; I'm not. But I'll find a book that's really meaningful and I'll try to read it two or three times so I can adopt it into my gray matter. For example, Daniel Kahneman's *Thinking, Fast and Slow*—I've read that book a few times, and I know everything about loss aversion theory. I know a lot about the relationship between money and happiness. I read *Observations of a Bystander* by Peter Drucker. I read *Sapiens* several times. I want to really embed stuff. Lately, I write down things in my phone that I just think are hilarious, like jokes. For example, I wrote down a prank idea: when my doctor walks in, I'm going to put on gloves. I love the idea of him walking in and me snapping on gloves just to see his reaction. We were talking about Trump today, and I saw this great quote that said, "Consequences rarely show up lubed." I love that! Whenever I see something that really resonates with me, I write it down and incorporate it into my rap. Especially great phrases, like "greatness is in the agency of others." I remember my VC said that, and I'm like, "That just makes so much goddamn sense!" I'm going to use that over and over. I have a lot of inspiration. I surround myself with really intelligent young people. I know that's ageist, but I think young people have a different frame on things that help me. If you're just reading something and not taking away anything, you're not really absorbing it. I think you're right; I'm totally inspired by George Carlin. I think he's fantastic on society. I'm inspired by Ricky Gervais and this comedian named Michelle Wolf—I think she's fantastic. I've read a lot about Muhammad Ali; I think he's about being courageous and poetic. Every young person should find a couple of people they find really inspiring and try to learn everything about them and what they said. That way, you can kind of turn on your Muhammad Ali. Madeleine Albright, the Secretary of State, who was 4 foot 10, I find inspiring regarding public policy and geopolitics. I've read a lot about her. Our memory is long, and our reach is far. I love that she used to say that about America to its enemies—basically a really eloquent way of saying, "Don't mess with us, boys." I just love that this 4'10" woman could wield the most powerful nation in the world in terms of our foreign policy abroad. She was an immigrant, and I found her inspiring, so I wanted to learn more about her so I could be her on occasion. Anyways, yep, build a kitchen cabinet of people.

Shaan Puri

Scott, I got my notes app here. It's called "Funny Phrases," and I just collect these. I'll give you three of my funny phrases on here. They're completely out of context, so you won't get it, but you'll get it because it sounds like you do this too. When somebody's thick, you could say that they're "built like a baguette." I like that—somebody's got the body of a baguette. Okay, next one: if you want to talk about something that other people are avoiding, you say, "Look, I'm going to address this like an envelope right now." That's a dad joke.

Scott Galloway

I like that.

Shaan Puri

Another one would be for CEOs who have a terrible sense of vision for the future. If the CEO was the shooter at JFK, he would have died of natural causes. I love these little isms, little phrases, and little sentences.

Scott Galloway

You're gonna lose this game. Okay, so he looks like a suicide bomber that's having second thoughts. This is more serious. I absolutely love this one. This is more true life advice: **your goal isn't to get the apology but to forgive the perceived debt.** I love that. I wrote this thing down. This is really bad. I was teaching my son about sex ed. So, I walked into his room with a banana and a condom, and he said, "What's a banana for?" I said, "I can't get hard on an empty stomach." I literally think that's the funniest... that just hit Sam. That literally just hit Sam. I just think that's so inappropriate. So, anyways, sorry guys.

Shaan Puri

Alright, I'm not gonna... This is like getting into a rap battle with Tupac. I'm not... I'm gonna put away my swipe file right here, even though I just had a good one.

Scott Galloway

There you go.

Shaan Puri

I'm gonna give up. You win. What are you excited about right now? Like, what are some things that are going on in the world, or products, or ideas, or trends? You know, I think you talk a lot about stuff that's wrong with America, with the world, with culture, with society, but I wanna know the opposite. What are you pumped about?

Scott Galloway

That's not easy for me. I mean, to be blunt, I'm a glass-half-empty kind of guy. I think a lot about loneliness. I think a lot about struggling young men. I think about the threats of AI. What am I excited about? I work with a really talented group of people that are inspiring. I love the work we're doing, Matt. I just really enjoy it. I get to travel a lot with my kids. I have kids that are at a great age, and I get to do a ton of fun stuff with them. That's really intoxicating. You know, I'm just enjoying a really nice life at this point. I'm leaning into my kids, just the hallmark stuff. I'm having a nice time with the people closest to me, and I'm healthy. I have good, healthy kids. You know, the boring stuff, man. It's not anything kind of... I mean, I'm going on my book tour this week. I go to LA for Bill Maher, then I'm meeting a bunch of college buddies, and I'm going to Stagecoach. After that, I go to Miami for a bunch of speaking gigs, and then I go home to London. I mean, I just have a really nice life right now, and everyone I care about is healthy. I feel relevant. So, I just have such a wonderful life, and I'm trying to slow time down so I can really appreciate it. Because, you know, there's no getting around it. I had lunch with Ted Sarandos, which I realize is a name drop, but I'm desperate for your guys' affirmation. His wife wrote a book on grief, and there's this great line she has: "Grief is love's receipts." I just love that. If you really care about someone, I didn't have a lot of grief until the age of 40. I realized it was because there was no one in my life that I really loved to really love me, other than my mom. So, you know, what I would bless or wish for anybody is that they have a lot of grief in their life. Because what it means is they have loss, and when you have loss, it's because you had something wonderful in your life, and you miss it. So, I'm just trying to appreciate how nice things are. I don't know... I'm not really excited about the Euro finals in Germany, although I am excited about the European finals in Germany. But I'm just enjoying myself. I'm rounding third. I have a really nice life right now, and I'm just trying to enjoy it because I know everything everywhere ends.

Shaan Puri

Do you say for people who are not rounding third? Like, people who are, you know, just batting lead-off right now. So, you talk a lot to young people. One of the phrases I really liked, or one of the quotes I really liked, was that "opportunity is a function of density." You said, "Get to a place that is crowded with success." What do you mean by that? Because that seems like really good advice for people.

Scott Galloway

Well, the motivation for the book was based on that study which suggests that you are kind of the average of your five closest friends. There's this interesting study about peer groups: the five people you hang out with tend to have similar body mass indexes, political values, jobs, and even neighborhoods. I mean, it's strange—you become the same person. What's different, though, is that among those five people, even if they have similar incomes, one will end up poor, three will be okay, and one will end up quite wealthy. I tried to understand the behaviors and strategies that differentiate the person who ends up financially secure from the others who are less financially secure. There are some general best practices around this. You absolutely want to get to a city if you're ambitious. I'm not suggesting this is the only way; it's just my perspective. If you're ambitious and want to have influence or economic security, before you collect dogs and kids, you need to get to a city. Two-thirds of economic growth is going to happen in just 20 cities. So, if you're really ambitious, get to the biggest city in your nation. Then, if you're in Europe, go to London; if you're in the U.S., go to New York; or if you're in Texas, consider San Francisco. These cities are highly competitive, and when you're in a big city, you're playing against the best players in the world. It's hard to live in Brooklyn; it's expensive, which means you have to be really good at what you do. You're surrounded by people who will inspire you and elevate your game. At some point...

Scott Galloway

You'll probably have to move out of the city because it's difficult with kids. But while you're young, get to a big city. Try and find really high-character, successful people to hang out with. Just find people you want to be like or that you admire, both professionally and personally. Try and establish those friendships and hang out with them because you rise or fall to the level of your peer group. The thing about cities is you're just bumping off opportunities. I've moved to London, and my reductive analysis of the U.S. versus Europe is that the U.S. is still the best place to make money, while Europe is the best place to spend it. So if you're in the making money part of your life, it's hard to beat the U.S. I didn't appreciate the American economy until I left it. People start from "yes, how can we work together? How can we build something together? How can we make money together?" In London, it's sort of like a very polite, indefinite "maybe." There's very little actual organic value creation in London; it's people servicing other people's wealth that they made elsewhere. There's nothing like America that says to a young person, "If you work your ass off and you're really good, and you get a little bit lucky, things can happen for you here."

Sam Parr

All my British friends say that they grew up being afraid of **tall poppy syndrome**, meaning they didn't want to stick out because their teachers would tell them, "Shut the hell up, get in line." Whereas in America, if you do something interesting, even if you fail, you're rewarded as being a hero. It's like, "Well, that's awesome, man! You went after it." Even if the outcome wasn't good, we praise you for getting after it. I think that's a very unique American thing compared to Europe. In Europe, if you stick out, you're chastised. Well, not...

Scott Galloway

Only that, but people say in America we embrace failure. That's not true, but we do tolerate it. Only 1 out of 7 businesses succeed. So, my strategy has been to start 9 businesses, and I got 2 wins. All you need is 1. If you aren't trying really hard, taking risks, and failing, then knowing when to pull the plug and move on, you're not taking advantage of the American embrace of risk and failure. I've never had trouble raising money because of past failures. People didn't mind that as long as you treated your investors well. As long as you were a decent person and didn't do anything stupid or unethical, people don't have a problem funding you again. I've had a lot of failure professionally, but I've never had... or I don't... let me put it this way: when I couldn't raise money, it wasn't because I had failed before. And that's true in relationships. So, yeah, the embrace or the acceptance of failure in America is singular, and it's a wonderful thing. If you aren't trying and taking a lot of risks here, you aren't taking advantage of an economy that's one of the few in the world. One of the few societies. I mean, if I was born in China, I'd probably be in jail because I'm outspoken and say stupid things. If I was born in Europe, you know, I think I'd be a talented businessperson, but I wouldn't be an entrepreneur that had recognized this success because they don't embrace failure—or, that's wrong, they don't tolerate it the way we do.

Sam Parr

Can I ask you a question about hard work? The reason being is... I found some things that read as contrary in your work, or at least in your story and what you write. Sean and I have talked a lot about this topic. I think people who say they work 80 hours a week for a really long time are either lying or they did a lot of bullshit work. To work 80 hours a week for an extended period of time is incredibly challenging. You talked about this in your book, as well as in some of your other blog posts. You mentioned, "In my forties, I grinded my ass off. All I was focused on was money, and it worked out." But that was all you did. You said you were happy you did it, but it was really hard work. Then I read about how you delegate a ton. I think you said something even as crazy as having someone pick out your clothes. You wear mostly the same thing: your workout outfit and then your work outfit. At Prop G Media, you mentioned that you only meet with the executive producer twice a month and have a one-hour meeting once a week with the editorial team. You haven't planned vacations in 20 years, and all you do is focus on a handful of things. Even though you're incredibly productive now, I wonder... are you still grinding? Looking back, knowing what you know now, could you have gotten to where you've gotten without that 80-hour-a-week work ethic for multiple years?

Scott Galloway

Well, things have changed dramatically for me. Now, I'm not working nearly as hard. I hire a lot of people. I don't overhire, but everyone works hard. When you have a small business and you don't have a lot of money... it's a different situation.

Shaan Puri

You know.

Scott Galloway

You just... you gotta get everyone needs you. You need to work hard, set an example, and create an environment where everyone's working hard. I'm not sure I was ever working 80 hours a week consistently. I definitely had weeks like that, but when I look back on it, kind of... I don't know, 10, 20, 10, 15 years, I don't remember much else other than work. I mean, I worked out when I had kids. I tried to spend some time with my kids. I still found time for fun and vacations, but you know, I would vacation two weeks a year. Now, I vacation a lot more than that. But I don't see any way around it. It's really my kids. When I say my kids, I mean my students. I'll ask them how much money they expect to be making by the time they're 35, and about 90% of them expect to be in the top 1%, which is $750,000 a year in America. Then they'll talk about that like, "That's what I expect." But I'll say, "What's most important to you in your life moving forward?" A lot of the time, they say balance. I'm like, "So you expect to be in the top 1% by the time you're 35, but you also believe you're gonna have balance in your life?" I mean, I don't... I've never seen that. You can have it all; you just can't have it all at once. And by the way, that may not be the way to go. You may sacrifice. You may say, "I wanna live a nice, kind of balanced life. I'm gonna move to a suburb of Saint Louis, coach little league, work 40 hours a week, be a good citizen, find a good partner, you know, coach little league, have a nice life." Nothing wrong with that. But the majority of the people I know, the young people, think they're gonna be in the top 1% and also have balance in their life, and I just think it's ridiculous. I'm like, "Okay, the only way to get there to achieve that is if you have one thing, and that's rich parents. Otherwise, expect to go all in on your career or scale back your expectations around your economics and your influence." Because it's a competitive market, and one of the things people can control is how hard they work. I don't think you wanna work so much that you sacrifice your health or your relationships. There is gonna be some trade-off with your relationships. I didn't see my kids a lot when they were little. I was divorced, and it was a contributor to that. I was always working in service companies and never saying no to any opportunity. "The CMO of Samsung, can you be in Seoul tomorrow for a board meeting?" Sure, I can. I mean, I just said yes to everything to try and move the company forward. But I... for a long...

Scott Galloway

**Worked very, very hard and sacrificed a lot. It takes a toll. I did it so that I could have a lot more balance now. But yeah, I don't... I don't... I don't... this notion, the myth of balance? Get over it. If you expect to be influential or economically secure, you're not going to have a lot of balance for a long time.** **Some people are such geniuses that they can work a modest amount of time, make a lot of money, work out, have a great relationship with their parents, be fit, donate time at the ASPCA, and have a food blog. Assume you are not that person. So just have a sober conversation. Also, have a sober conversation with your partner: How much money do we expect to have? Who's responsible for making it? What's your approach to spending? Where are we going to live?** **You know, the number one source of divorce is not infidelity or lack of shared values. It's usually got something to do with money. Also, 70% of divorce filings are filed by women. We don't like to say this because we like to pretend women have no agency and that they're just doughy little foes. When a man loses a business, becomes broke, or has a mental breakdown, when a man loses status as a provider, he's very inclined to be on the wrong end of divorce.** **So I think a lot about young men. I think a lot about financial security. I think every man should start with the notion that he's going to be responsible for the economic well-being of his household. And by the way, sometimes that means getting out of the way and being more supportive of your partner who happens to be better at that money thing than you. And that's a wonderful thing. But start from a position of, "This is my responsibility," and make sure you're aligned with your partner around this stuff.** **Because the thing we don't talk about is that your kids are going to have higher blood pressure if you're economically strained. Kids in low-income households have greater systolic resting blood pressure than kids in middle and upper-income homes. You're much more likely to get divorced. You're much more likely to have a stroke. You're much more likely to be the victim or the perpetrator of domestic violence when you don't have money. I mean, America becomes more like itself every day. It's a loving, generous place for people with money; it's a rapacious, violent place for people who don't have money.** **So all this bullshit that money doesn't buy you happiness? Oh my god, is that a myth! I'm not saying you need to be incredibly wealthy, but middle-income people are happier than poor people, and wealthy people are happier than middle-income people. That's the bad news. The good news is that it tops out; you get diminishing returns. You have to be cognizant of when you do get to some level of economic security. That's the means. The ends are such that you can have an exhale, release the anxiety that you feel, and then use the opportunity to really spend a lot of time with your loved ones and cement those relationships.** **The problem is you get on the hedonic treadmill, and you become so absorbed in your own success, your professional identity, money, and making more money that you never get to the ends. You wake up a wealthy person or someone who's financially secure, has always thought about their economic well-being, and you don't really have a great relationship with your kids. Or you never really leaned into your partnership and thought, "Okay, let's take time to really enjoy each other's company. Let's do nice things." Your parents die before you have a chance to really spend time with them as adults. I think that happens to a lot of people. They just get so caught up in, "I need the next promotion. I need the next amount of money."** **And once I get here... I have someone very close to my life—it's a family member—and I'm taking them to Africa. They're making excuses, "But our kids in the choir..." They were making excuses. I'm like, "You realize this is your last chance to go to Africa before you're dead, right? You're 50 years old! When do you go? When you're 70? But you gotta get back to work an extra day?" I mean, what are you thinking? We're going to be dead soon.** **I just think so many people don't realize how fast it's going to go by and never really... never really lean into the relationships, but just allow themselves to have a great time. I'm going to Stagecoach this week. I'm going to see a country music festival. I can't stand country, but I'm going. I'm going to buy a pair of boots, and I'm going to have a great time. I'm going to do an edible, and I'm going to drink a ton. I'm going to have the rest of my adolescence with my friends, and I'm going to look ridiculous. And it's like, yeah, why not? Why the fuck not? What am I going to do? Watch C-SPAN all weekend?** **I can't stand it when people who are blessed with being in this country, have some level of economic security, have people in their life that love them and they love, and they don't... like, crazy lean into it. Because you guys are younger than I am. It just goes so goddamn fast. It's just crazy. It is just crazy how fast it goes. Anyway.**

Shaan Puri

Well, I don't know how to respond to that, Scott. Here's what I do know: I feel like I learned something, and I feel a little bit bad inside. At the same time, I feel a little bit good. You made me feel a little bit bad, and I need to go. I need to like... burp or something. I need to get a little bit out of my system. I just need to unwind from that.

Sam Parr

Do they not have Zoloft in London?

Scott Galloway

You know, I haven't hit the antidepressant. I just did ketamine therapy though, and that was a trip. No, I'm trying to... I'm trying to just, you know, look. The good news is I hate my life less and less every day. So, I'm sort of getting there. I'm sort of.

Shaan Puri

You're like if Mitch Hedberg had a podcast and opened an LLC.

Scott Galloway

Are we?

Shaan Puri

I'm going to buy that book.

Scott Galloway

Are we going to talk about my book? Do you think I got to number 1 talking about doing therapy with you guys on these "Joey Bag of Donuts" podcasts? Are you going to bring up my book?

Shaan Puri

Yeah, tell us about the book. Okay, we talked a little bit about the book, but tell us. The floor is yours. Make your case as to what I'm going to get out of this book because I'm going to buy it and I'm going to read it.

Scott Galloway

Thanks for that.

Shaan Puri

But I'll read it with a different level of enthusiasm if you give me a little teaser of what I'm going to get out of it.

Scott Galloway

Okay, so the algebra of wealth is the following: Find your talent. Focus on working in an industry that will pay you during your twenties. Once you have a certain amount of momentum professionally, really try to develop a savings muscle. Wealth isn't about how much you make; it's about how much you spend. Try to get to a point, at a fairly early stage, where you spend less than you make. That is very difficult. The brightest companies and minds in the world are all here to convince you that an upgrade from economy to economy comfort, to economy plus, to business class is an investment in yourself. No, it's not; it's consumption. Don't try to impress other people with your stuff. No one is as concerned with your things as you are. You don't need to order a bottle of vodka at a club for $450. Get a Hyundai, for God's sake. Travel coach, save money, and start saving early. Lean in. If you're young, lean into your advantage, which is that you have a lot of time. Develop that savings muscle. Diversify. The moment you have any real capital, start diversifying. That way, no matter what happens, you have Kevlar. You can have a stock go to zero, and if a bullet hits you in the chest, it doesn't kill you because you're diversified. Then, take advantage of the flaw in the species, and that's time. Recognize that time will go faster than you think. If you show a little bit of discipline, a little bit of maturity, and that savings muscle early, remember that the S&P is up 11% a year since 2008. Well, that sounds boring now, but that means every 21 years, your investments are up 8x, and that 21 years will go really fast. So, hope you sell a bestselling book, hope your company goes public, hope your album goes double platinum, or that some rich uncle dies and leaves you everything. But just in case, make sure you're financially secure. I can get you there if you follow these principles and show a little bit of discipline and maturity. The good news is I can get you rich. The bad news is the answer is slowly, but we can get you there.

Shaan Puri

So, the algebra of wealth equals **focus** + **stoicism** times **time** times **diversification**. That's the formula. That's the formula.

Sam Parr

You're the formula guy. Like, you have a lot of your talks where you use formulas to explain stuff. You've had the "Algebra of Happiness" and now the "Algebra of Wealth." Alright, is this going to be a whole "Algebra of Blank" series? Because anytime I see that, I'm into it. If it's an equation, I'm into it.

Scott Galloway

Yeah, so humans need constructs to remember things. You can read a book, and if it doesn't have constructs or visualizations, it's pretty easy to forget about it. So, I really like constructs. I wrote "The Algebra of Happiness" and "The Algebra of Wealth" out today. I'm about to sign a three-book deal. I'm writing "The Algebra of Masculinity," "The Algebra of Work," and "The Algebra of Mating." Those are three topics I'm super interested in, and I want to try and do enough research where I can distill it down to some best practices that people can hold on to.

Shaan Puri

Well, I want to talk about the first variable in this. You said focus. Mhm. Because we talked about stoicism. I know about time, I know about diversification, but teach me about focus. I'm pretty bad at focus and I'm trying to get better. Give me a couple of words on focus as part of this equation.

Scott Galloway

If you have a side hustle, you need to find a different main hustle. You're better off spending the time you invest in your side hustle on your main hustle. A side hustle is fine if you're exploring a new main hustle, but the way to get wealthy is not by juggling a variety of things. It's about being really great at one thing. So, that should be your focus. The term we use is **mastery** or **ninja-like capability**. Try to find something you could become great at. That’s not easy, but also, as we discussed before, find it in an industry that's not very sexy. If you're in the top 10% of tax law, or if you're installing HVAC systems—especially energy-efficient ones—or if you're among the top 10% of people who know how to install soapstone kitchen counters, you're going to make a really good living. Taking care of your kids is so much fun, and being there for your parents is economically rewarding. It's really exciting and enjoyable. I think young people often mistake passion for their hobbies, not recognizing that as they get older, being able to give money away, do nice things, and relax with your partner is super enjoyable. It's almost as fun as, you know, spinning tunes. I mean, that is really enjoyable. So, put yourself in a position, when you're a little older—because time goes really fast—to do wonderful things with people you care about. The way to get there is by making more than you spend and saving. But the first thing you have to do is find a focus. We live in a specialist economy. Find something and ask yourself, "Could I be great at this?" That’s the question. If you become great at it, trust me, you'll become passionate about it. You can't become great at anything you hate; that will automatically be screened out. I'm not suggesting that drudgery is the way. If you find something drudgerous, you're just not going to be great at it. I found consulting. I didn't even know what consulting was when I was in college or business school. I figured out, "Wait, people will pay you to rent your brain? Wow!" I was always really good at establishing these proxy father-son relationships with powerful men. My core deal with them was, "I understand brand better than you. You're the CMO; I'm going to make you the CEO in three years. In exchange for that, you're going to pay my company $1,000,000 a year to answer very deep, hard questions." I figured that out in my late twenties, which was a blessing. When I sold the company, I thought, "I don't want to be in services anymore. It's a young person's business. I'm sick of being on planes." So, I had to workshop my life again. Then I figured out, "Okay, I'm a good teacher." What does it mean to be a good teacher? It means you have to be a good storyteller. But what if I told stories in different mediums? Could I make money in books, speaking, or podcasts? I figured out, "Yeah, I'm good at this. I could even be great someday." That mastery has led to a really nice life. I've always tried to spend reasonably and spend less than I was making, sometimes more than others. I finally learned to diversify the hard way. I lost everything twice: in 2000 and again in 2008, because I thought, "I'm so awesome that whatever my focus is will naturally be successful through my sheer force of character." That's not true. So, I started diversifying and followed these basic principles, letting time take over. I really started saving a lot of money in my 40s. I deployed an army of capital to start fighting and working for me and my family in my sleep. That army just grew in a bull market, and I came home with immense spoils because I deployed this army early and often, and I kept adding to it. I feel like, "Here's a tank." Alright, okay, I'm saving money. I'm not going to have the fat apartment.

Shaan Puri

Right.

Scott Galloway

Okay, here's some more artillery. Go kill more people and come home with money. That's a little bit much, anyway.

Shaan Puri

We're still working off of that one.

Scott Galloway

Yeah, I'm still working through that one. Wrong choice... wrong choice of words. **Accoutrements**. The accoutrements of my army.

Shaan Puri

Scott, thanks for coming on, man. Everybody, go buy the book *The Algebra of Wealth*. He has to be number one on the charts because he needs our affirmation, and let's give it to him!

Scott Galloway

Thanks, guys. Thanks for your success. Thanks, Sam. Thanks, Sean, and thanks, Ari.

Sam Parr

Thank you.